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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9869
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Posted - 2014.03.10 03:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
In 1.8's efforts to deal with the TTK issue, it creates new set of rifle balance issues with the damage per second of rifle of the same type (particularly the assault type), and this is just the tip of the iceberg; there has been deep balance issues with the rifles for quite a long time. The burst, breach, and tactical ARs have been very bad weapons for many builds.
For background, I think it is necessary that everyone understands what is meant by type, and CCP's plan for the racial "assault rifles" before moving forward. This is a quote from CCP Remnant on what rifle types and variants.
"The idea being that each race will have it's base variant be Assault, (Gallente) Burst (Minmatar), Breach (Caldari) or Tactical (Amarr) and then the variants are a specific race's take on the others using their own tech. So, you'd get an Assault Rail Rifle that attempts to somewhat mimic the behavior of the Gallente Assault Rifle and a Tactical Assault Rifle that attempts to mimic the Amarr Scrambler Rifle and so on."
It is also important to know the ranges of weapons of different damage profiles. Can be found here, from 1.7 weapon dev blog.
Assault type
Assault rifle [should really be renamed to plasma rifle] (hybrid-plasma damage profile: short range)
Assault scrambler rifle (laser damage profile: medium to long range)
Assault rail rifle (hybrid-railgun damage profile: long range)
Assault combat rifle (projectile damage profile: short-medium range)
Tactical type
Scrambler rifle (laser: medium to long range)
Tactical assault rifle (hybrid-plasma: short range)
*Future tactical variants for RR (hybrid-railgun: long range)
*Future tactical variants for CR (projectile: short-medium range)
Burst type
Combat rifle (projectile: short-medium range)
Burst assault rifle (hybrid-plasma: short range)
*Future burst variants for RR (hybrid-railgun: long range)
*Future burst variants for SCR (laser: medium to long range)
Breach type
Rail rifle (hybrid-railgun: long range)
Breach assault rifle (hybrid-plasma: short range)
*Future breach variants for SCR (laser: medium to long range)
*Future breach variants for CR (projectile: short-medium range)
[Comparison]
So we have identified the types, and their comparative ranges (short to long, everything in between) within the type. Now lets compare the rifles by type using 1.8 stats. All stats prototype.
Assault
AR: 412.5 DPS, shortest range (45 optimal/78 optimal)
aCR: 420, short-medium range (56/84)
aSCR: 420.59, medium-long range (56/90)
aRR: 400, longest range (75/102)
Tactical
tAR: 462 DPS (acheivable without modded controller), 69.3 damage per shot, restrictive ROF (you can tap R1 faster than it can shoot). Shortest range range (57/84)
SCR: 841.17 DPS (not acheivable without modded controller), 71.5 damage per shot, non-restricive ROF. Medium-long range (75/96)
Burst
buAR: 474.38 DPS, shortest range (50/78)
CR: 594 DPS, short-medium range (67/84)
Breach
brAR: 330, shortest range (46/78)
RR: 397.69, longest range (75/102)
[Conclusion]
The assault SCR is OP compared to the AR; has both more DPS, on top of more range.
The assault CR is OP compared to the AR; has both more DPS, on top of more range.
The assault RR does have less damage per second in exchange for range, but it gets 30 meters more optimal to deal full damage in exchange for only 12.5 less damage per second. The aRR gets the much better end of the deal.
The tactical AR sucks compared to the SCR. SCR has more damage per shot, more rate of fire, way more range, the charge shot ability, better hipfire accuracy; unless you're really really bad at managing overheat, there is no reason to use the tac AR over the SCR.
The burst AR sucks compare to the CR. CR has more massively more DPS, and more range.
The breach AR sucks compared to the RR. Less range, less DPS, less magazine size, there's just no reason to ever use the breach AR.
While not of the same type, the AR and RR are comparable because they are both automatic. The AR has about 14 points more damage per second, but the RR gets 30 meters more optimal range to do full damage in. While it is a tradeoff, it seems far from equitable; the RR gets the better end of that deal.
All weapons of the AR family pretty much suck.
[Solutions]
The main thing is the DPS vs range is not something CCP seems to actively think of as a tradeoff for weapons. Generally If a weapon has more DPS than another of the same type, it should have less range; likewise, if a weapon has less range, it should have more DPS.
The AR weapon family has the least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the highest DPS within their types.
The CR weapon has the 2nd least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd highest DPS within their types.
The SCR weapon has the 2nd most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd lowest DPS within their types.
The RR weapon has the most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the lowest DPS within their types.
Rifle balance has been an issue for so long. This issue deserves an overhaul.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9874
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
I am a SCR user who strongly believes the SCR is not OP compared to the other rifles, but the tactical AR just sucks by comparison. In regards to overheat, it takes about 15 shots without Amarr assault skills to overheat. The Tactical AR's has an 18 round magazine; only able to fire 3 more rounds before reloading than the SCR can before overheating.
There is no way a 0.25 spool up time even comes close to closing the massive gulf of effectiveness between the breach AR and the RR. The spool up time is a non-factor if you start shooting before the enemy notices you, and can easily be mitigated by pre-spooling (repeatedly tapping R1 in close range situations) if you know the enemy is around. Even when the spool up does make a difference, it hardy justifies he breach AR's general poor performance.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9876
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Posted - 2014.03.10 09:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons.
Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weaons aren't worth using by comparison (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimick variants. Mimick variants already cost more, and reuire more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9883
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Martyr Saboteur wrote:Sigh.
You're slipping KAGE.
You still make nicely presented posts though...
I misread something... NVM. You're good.
Edit again: Nope. I read it correctly.
I sure love how specific this is 
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9900
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Posted - 2014.03.11 20:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is no reason to use the AR or any AR variant in 1.8
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9901
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Posted - 2014.03.11 21:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:You forget WAY too much factors.
ONE : PG/CPU use.
Why a weapons should takes 92 CPU and 20 PG when one is taking only 8 PG and 60 CPU ?
Second : Recoil, overheat, Damage Profile. (CR is the most Op because of this)
When one is making -5% to shield and 10% bonus on armor.
While the other deals 20% bonus on shield (Which almost never go up to 400) and 20% penality (Try to get down 1000 armor.)
Reload time / Mag / spread / Accuracy / ads / dumb fire accuracy / zoom level.
You see ? You can't just use Range / Damage / RoF to make your comparaison.
Mentioned overheat.
Recoil is a non-issue for most things except the RR, and the advantages far outweigh that disadvantage.
Guessing by "dumbfire" you mean hipfire, in which case the differences aren't significant. The SCR vs tAR is he only instance where it is significant, and it favors the SCR yet again.
The CR damage profile is an issue, but that is an issue with projectiles in general that needs to be handled. All other damage profiles have a fair tradeoff.
Zoom levels are fairly even.
Magazine sizes for weapons of the same type are fairly close, with the exception of RR vs brAR, and SCR vs tAR. The SCR's overheat limits shots fired in quick succession to being comparable to the magazine size of tAR.
I never said the range vs DPS should be the only balancing factors (perhaps I should add a disclaimer), but they certainly are the most important ones.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9923
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Posted - 2014.03.12 22:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:Awesome post and all the other issues have been addressed so this is an awesome thread.
Thanks
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9944
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Posted - 2014.03.15 02:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fix the pew pews!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9952
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Posted - 2014.03.15 04:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s.  So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself.
Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be apposed to it. I certainly hope the tactical variant of RRs won't get even more range than the regular ones when it arrives (though I guess it could be balanced).
What I'm basically arguing is that rifles within the same type should be balanced against each other, for example a tAR shouldn't suck against a SCR; the tAR's less range should be a tradeoff for something like more damage, and not less like it currently has.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9952
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Posted - 2014.03.15 04:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Summ Dude wrote:Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s. So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself. Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be apposed to it. I certainly hope the tactical variant of RRs won't get even more range than the regular ones when it arrives (though I guess it could be balanced). What I'm basically arguing is that rifles within the same type should be balanced against each other, for example a tAR shouldn't suck against a SCR; the tAR's less range should be a tradeoff for something like more damage, and not less like it currently has. Right right, and I'm with you on all that. But keeping the ranges the same across variants would help to reinforce that racial style, as well as reinforcing the distinction between the base rifle, it's variant, and the rifle that the variant is mimicking.
I think I agree with you.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10011
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Posted - 2014.03.18 14:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
1.8 is coming, it is the DOOOOOOM of the AR!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10181
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
I expect things won't be fixed for a long time.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10314
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Posted - 2014.04.05 23:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
This needs to be fixed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10317
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Posted - 2014.04.06 02:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down.
Instead of nerfing stuff, AR and variants could be buffed.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10317
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Posted - 2014.04.06 03:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged?
No idea, though I'm not sure DPS should be the main factor in balancing the different types. Its also hard to say because the tactical and burst DPS are based on the user's speed at tapping R1.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10318
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology.
Like I said to him
Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10324
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Master Smurf wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree???I also hate the breach / rail talk. The breach AR is for close range hard hitting CQC where the RR is basically a full auto sniper with less range. Why would anyone want to try to even those out???? I believe CCP only made that correlation for firing style ie slower full auto.
Why try out others? For a different set of pros and cons that fit different situations.
Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses amor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR.
While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10424
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
BUFF ARs!
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